JJ Virgin | The Trust Crisis in Healthcare (And How to Fix It)

April 29, 2026
In this episode of the Health Optimization Medicine Podcast, JJ Virgin gives us one-cent solutions to life’s $64,000 questions that include:
Why are we in a “trust recession,” and how has this fundamentally changed how patients choose healthcare providers?
How can clinicians build a trusted authority by combining vulnerability, contrarian thinking, and authentic storytelling?
Why is being “different” more important than being “better” when it comes to standing out in a crowded health and wellness space?
How do patient stories and real-world outcomes create stronger proof and connection than credentials alone?
What role does mindset, including imposter syndrome and self-belief, play in a clinician’s ability to grow, communicate, and lead?
Who is JJ Virgin?

JJ Virgin is a triple board-certified nutrition expert, Fitness Hall of Famer, and four-time New York Times bestselling author known for her work in nutrition, metabolism, and healthy aging. She is a leading voice in the health and wellness space, with a mission to redefine aging as a stage of life to be lived with strength, vitality, and purpose. Through her books, media appearances, and widely followed platforms, she has helped millions of people take control of their health through the power of food, exercise, and lifestyle optimization.
As the founder of the Health Business Growth Collective, formerly known as Mindshare, JJ has built one of the most influential communities for health entrepreneurs in the world. Her leadership has supported the launch of numerous bestselling books, PBS specials, and multiple seven-figure health brands. She is also the host of the Well Beyond 40 podcast, which has surpassed tens of millions of downloads, and her educational content reaches a global audience across digital platforms.
In addition to her work in nutrition and business, JJ is a passionate advocate for empowering clinicians and practitioners to build trust, communicate authentically, and create meaningful impact in the age of AI and digital health. Her work bridges the gap between clinical expertise and real-world application, helping professionals stand out through authenticity, storytelling, and evidence-based authority. Through her teaching, speaking, and mentorship, she continues to shape the future of health optimization and practitioner-led care.
What did JJ and Dr. Scott discuss?

00:00 Intro: JJ Virgin & the Trust Recession
01:30 Why Healthcare Is Facing a Trust Crisis
03:00 Influencer vs Trusted Authority
05:00 The Real Way to Build Trust (Not Credentials)
07:30 Why Vulnerability Wins in Healthcare
09:30 Authority: The Power of Contrarian Beliefs
12:00 Finding Your “Hill to Die On”
15:00 Proof That Converts: Stories vs Credentials
18:00 Why Patients Take 18 Months to Decide
20:30 The Biggest Mistake Practitioners Make
23:00 Imposter Syndrome & The “You” Factor
25:30 Building a Personal Brand That Converts
27:30 Platforms That Actually Work (YouTube, IG, Speaking)
Full Transcript:

Dr. Scott Sherr: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Health Optimization Medicine podcast. My name is Dr. Scott Scher. It is great to be with you all today. Excited to bring you a fantastic episode with JJ Virgin. JJ has been a friend, actually a recent friend, but I've known her for a long time in the health and wellness space. She's a stalwart here and so excited to have her on our podcast.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Here's a quick bio on JJ. She is a triple boarded certified nutrition expert, fitness Hall of Famer, and a passionate advocate for healing power of food and exercise. She's on a mission to redefine aging, not as something we endure, but as a stage of life to own with strength, vitality, and purpose. I love that.

Dr. Scott Sherr: She's a four time New York, New York Times bestselling author, um, multiple books. Very, very, very successful there. She's also the founder of Health Business Growth Collective. Formerly known as Mindshare, the most influential community of health entrepreneurs in the world. Her leadership has helped launch more New York Times bestsellers, PBS specials and seven figure brands than any other group in the industry.

Dr. Scott Sherr: She's [00:01:00] fantastic here. She's been on multiple media appearances. She also has her own podcast called The Well Beyond 40 Podcasts, which is surpassed 22 million downloads, and her social media content reaches millions and millions and millions. She's a fantastic human being, and I really had a great time having her on the podcast today.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Her angle and our discussion today was super interesting. We talked about this new framework that she's developed that she calls, well, she has a triangle framework called, and she has three aspects of the triangle. One is vulnerability, the second is authority, and the third is. Proof with you in the middle, and she goes through all the steps of really trying to create you as a clinician, your brand, and understanding how you're going to create something so that people want to come see you.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Patients wanna come see you. How do you create an audience? How do you create your mission? And J'S really nailed this because she's been doing it for such a long time. She knows that we all need a platform to be able to create something. But it feels difficult as physicians and clinicians and practitioners to do this.

Dr. Scott Sherr: We feel like [00:02:00] there's a lot of competition out there. We feel like how do we make ourselves different from everybody else? And so what JJ does in this podcast very, very well is to give you a roadmap to give you understanding of what the real tools are within her framework to be able to do this and to get outta your own way.

Dr. Scott Sherr: That's the hard part as clinicians that most of us. Well, we have like, we have an issue, we have an imposter syndrome. And I definitely feel this personally with my own practice over the years. When I started things outta the hospital as an internal medicine physician, it was a different animal altogether and I didn't feel comfortable.

Dr. Scott Sherr: And so I really hope you enjoy this podcast with JJ Virgin. If you do, don't forget to like and subscribe below so you never miss an episode. Enjoy.

Dr. Scott Sherr: JJ, it's so nice to see you.

JJ Virgin: You too. It's, it's been a while. What, like a week?

Dr. Scott Sherr: I know. Just a couple days. I feel like I was just in Tampa interviewing with you and it was such a great time to be with you and Tim and, and thank you so much for the platform to speak about some of the things that I do, and I'm so excited to have you on our podcast to talk about.

Dr. Scott Sherr: All the things, [00:03:00] not all the things, but some of the things that you're really excited about right now. Because I know like you, we're always onto the next thing, always trying to figure out how we can make our models better. Always try to help the people that are in, in our ecosystems work better, do better, feel better.

Dr. Scott Sherr: And you were just mentioning before we started recording that you had just over the last couple weeks, you know, with the, with AI and personal branding and, and, and how to really understand this as a clinician and become unique and I think all of us in, in the clinical world. Or really just trying to understand this now with the, with the advent of AI and how it can help us, but also it can be potentially challenging as well.

Dr. Scott Sherr: So maybe run me through what this new model is or how you kind of bringing this together and we can, we can talk about it in detail.

JJ Virgin: I know this is my left brain math enthusiasm you're about to get,

Dr. Scott Sherr: I love it.

JJ Virgin: you know, it comes from this whole thing with, with ai, yes, there's a lot of fear involved, but I always look at like what's the, what are the possibilities and here's what we know to be true right now in the world of ai. And the, the post pandemic world, we're in a [00:04:00] recession, but not the recession.

JJ Virgin: People think we're in, we're in a trust recession. And one of the, one of the groups that's really stuff suffering from trust is the healthcare professional, right? And so once we know this, we need to do something about it. So what I've been really looking at is I work a lot with practitioners who are in the longevity hormones, health optimization, regenerative medicine, like all that space.

JJ Virgin: And one of the big fears they have is, you know. It's saturated. I'm always like, it's not saturated. It's, you don't need to worry about that. But they have the fear. It's saturated. I know the big questions that always come up are, how do I get more patients right? And, and you know, how, how do I do a cash based business?

JJ Virgin: All of that. And I realize that there's a, there's a really key foundational piece that once you have this foundational piece, it makes everything else. Easy. When you really look at personal brand and, and here's the reality [00:05:00] that trust recession. Forbes just did a study and they found that 82% of people are going, and this is gonna be a little bit, make you throw up a little in your mouth.

JJ Virgin: So here we go. 82% of people are going to social media before they make a buying decision to see if the person is real Now. That conjures up. I know kind of fear in every practitioner's heart that I went to school, so I'm gonna dance and point on social media. No, that is not the case. However, you do have to show up on social media, but not as an influencer.

JJ Virgin: There's a different position and something we started using in the health business growth collective years ago, but I feel like I finally put it all together in the last couple weeks. So this is why I'm so super excited about it. So it is the difference between being an influencer. Versus an authority, but not just an authority, a trusted authority because of what's going on now.

JJ Virgin: And so what I've been putting together is how do you create this trusted authority, this category of [00:06:00] one, this person who stands out, not because you're better, because everyone will say in Mark, I'm better that that's ridiculous. Like no one knows better quality, better. That's what everybody always says.

JJ Virgin: So what Sally Hogshead, who wrote Fascinate says is it's not about being better, it's about being different. It's about that category of one, how you're unmistakable, how you're irreplaceable. And so that's what I've been working on this framework of, and I've created, which I'm gonna share with you today, that everyone can just go and take to create their own category of one in whatever niche that they're in.

JJ Virgin: 'cause one of the first things we always teach that we get a lot of kickback from is that you've gotta pick a lane. And everyone's like, but I treat everything. I go, I know you do. I know, but you know, what you do is if you pick the lane, you'll still end up treating all the things. But people, people seek out experts.

JJ Virgin: And especially now with SEO and a AEO, people are not, would never type in, I have a general health problem.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Never

JJ Virgin: they're never gonna find you unless [00:07:00] you put your stake in the ground and you have, you know, stand for something. So when you look at this Tru Trusted Authority Triangle, and I can actually give you this so you can do a download picture of it. The bottom of the triangle is trust, because attention without trust is meaningless. So you see a lot of virality online and they're doing ridiculous things. And I'll tell you this funniest story. We hired this YouTube guy to help us with our YouTube channel. He goes, started, show my team other channels we could model with girls.

JJ Virgin: Like skimpy workout wear. I go, you do know I'm like 62 and I'm like, my days of wearing booty shorts and a jog bra. Like I, that's so not happening. Like, this is not how I want to get attention. Thank you. You've missed the plot, dude. You know you're fired. So, you know, so we, we know that you've got to have that trust.

JJ Virgin: But here's what's crazy, when you ask, you know, and I, I just did this recently, sat in a room with healthcare professionals. I go, so how do you create trust? And it was like, okay, patient [00:08:00] results and your cred, your credentials, and it's like, Nope, it's not, not. How do you have an idea of how you create trust?

Dr. Scott Sherr: I would see, like for me, as you were saying it, is that there's a couple different ways you can think about it, right? So when I think of creating trust, I think of bedside manner being a big part of it. So if you're actually communicating with people in person, it's much easier to create trust. But what you're kind of alluding to is that it's much harder when you're trying to bring them in and create something and to create, create that trust without actually seeing them in person.

Dr. Scott Sherr: What is that? What is that otherwise, right?

JJ Virgin: So there's actually, it's not any of those things, and that's what everyone did because think about your lens. You're coming in from the doctor lens. You're just like, okay, you know, it's my bedside manner. Okay. It's my credentials. Okay. It's, it's actually the thing you were taught never to do in medical school, and this is the problem.

JJ Virgin: It's your humanity, it's your vulnerability, it's your relatability. You know the things, you're not supposed to show those things.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yes. Yep.

JJ Virgin: what's so interesting [00:09:00] in the world of integrative, functional, alternative, whatever the heck you wanna call it, is it is rare to meet someone in this world who isn't here because of a personal story.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.

JJ Virgin: And that personal story is the vulnerability, is the relatability, is the humanity. So it is the reason that you want to let people hear your story. Not in the TMI sense. Right. You know?

Dr. Scott Sherr: It's, it's the, it's the version that's meant for TV kind of

JJ Virgin: it's just for them. Go. Oh. This person's like me. It is. Get off the pedestal, take off your white coat, take off the stethoscope. If I see one more picture of someone with a white coat and stethoscope, stop that. That's the eighties. Knock it off. Right? You know, it is the come down and you're gonna talk to them because that's how they will trust you.

JJ Virgin: If they can really feel you, see you. So that's the first part, is that trust.

Dr. Scott Sherr: The trust comes from vulnera vulnerability basically, is

JJ Virgin: from vulnerability and.

Dr. Scott Sherr: you can demonstrate that in any kind of, and so when you're talking about being an influencer versus being a trusted authority, [00:10:00] that's the first aspect of it, right? Is like you have to create. This vulnerability.

Dr. Scott Sherr: So it's interesting. You can be like, what I find is that, as you said, jj, most of the clinicians that are in the worlds of practice that you described, that you're most aligned with or you, you work with, they're all coming from a place, most of them are coming from a place where they have their own personal story, right?

Dr. Scott Sherr: How they got there, or a family member that was failed by the system. You know, which is, which is I think what you're kinda really digging into is like, how do, how did you come by and you know, become the person you are, right? So,

JJ Virgin: Right, and we all have some kind of story in there. quite often you don't realize you have it because you can't see the picture when you're in the frame. But as you start to become more aware of it and talk to people, you realize, or, or a friend will dig it out of you because they know they know you.

JJ Virgin: Right. But that is that key piece. And one of the recommendations this past weekend is if you're struggling with this piece, watch, you know, read Brene's Brown's vulnerability book or watch her Ted talk. 'cause she really was the person who put this on the map. So that's the foundational part. Now, [00:11:00] on the left part of the triangle, I have authority,

Dr. Scott Sherr: Okay.

JJ Virgin: and this is a really interesting piece because again, when you say, okay, well what creates authority?

JJ Virgin: What would you think?

Dr. Scott Sherr: Well, of course you'd think that you have a command of something, a command of a topic, a command of, um, a ecosystem in some way that you really understand a lot about, so that you can come from a place where you know, you know, more than everybody else kind of deal, right? Or at least have a capacity to have a different angle on something that's maybe it's something that people know a lot about.

JJ Virgin: Okay, you just said something very important. You said a different angle, and I'm gonna give you an example since we were just talking about our buddy Dr. David Perlmutter. So you know David, he's one of the sweetest, kindest human beings ever and the least contrarian human you'll ever meet. And yet. David Perlmutter doubles down on the fact that what you eat affects your brain and writes the book.

JJ Virgin: Grain Brain gets pummeled. [00:12:00] Critics, you're a quack, you're crazy, but it's the hill he would die on. It's this contrarian belief he's gonna go for it, and he is seen as this massive authority. So the way you create authority is through these different ideas, these contrarian beliefs. You look at what everybody is doing in the world of hormone replacement therapy, everyone's saying, oh, you can only be on 10 years.

JJ Virgin: You're showing how they can use it the rest of their life. Oh, if you didn't start it within five years, you can't do it. Oh, you're showing someone how to start it when they're five or 10 years post-menopausal. So what. What is the sacred cow in your industry? What is it a piece of health advice your patients walk in and say to you and you're like, Ugh, that again, you know, what are those things that you feel like you're just continue to say for me?

JJ Virgin: No, you're not gonna get bulky lifting weights. No. You should lift weights before you lose the weight. Not wait to lose weight, to

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yes. Yeah,

JJ Virgin: know, I literally was taught in grad school, do not lift weights till you lose the weight. I go, that is the dumbest thing ever. So, you know, what are those [00:13:00] things that you hear all the time that you would put a, like you would put a stake on the ground on you.

JJ Virgin: It's a hill you would die on. And what's important in our world, like if you go online, you will see these authorities. That people will follow. People are throwing money at saying ridiculous stuff, but with conviction

Dr. Scott Sherr: that's, that's all you need sometimes on social media.

JJ Virgin: me crazy, right? It drive, I mean, any health expert out there is looking at someone out there saying that methylation is the root of all health problems and ready to, to just, you know, bang their head against the wall.

JJ Virgin: But yet that person has massive reach and massive audiences, and people follow 'em because of the. Absolutes because of the authority. And so it is our responsibility in the authority part because we know that absolutes in accuracy don't necessarily live on the same street, but in our world, they have to.

JJ Virgin: You know, like if I'm gonna say, don't you know that, that you should lift weight before you start to try to lose weight, I better be able to back up why I'm [00:14:00] saying that. Right. You know, if I'm gonna say that creatine HCL is a way better form than creatine monohydrate, I better be able to say, why. So you can't just.

JJ Virgin: Pull stuff out. You have to have to take this authority stance, but with integrity.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

JJ Virgin: With the accuracy that a lot of the,

Dr. Scott Sherr: though, right though is like, is like, how do you dance? In the world, like I, I a hundred percent agree with you. 'cause I, this is what I think about all the time. I think about what's the, as a clinician, we all think about a lot of us over and over again. You're getting the same questions asked, you're answering it the similar ways, you're seeing the same issues.

Dr. Scott Sherr: You see changes in how people make major gains when you ask them to do certain things. That's true, but navigating this as a consumer is so interesting, right? As you said, like, but I think that's, we, we can keep that aside for now, right? 'cause I think that's not really what you're driving at really. The drive here, as I understand is like, what's your authority for like very specific niche.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Not like, it doesn't have to be small, but like a place where you can really like, you know, put your flag in the, in the ground and say, this [00:15:00] is what I

JJ Virgin: Yeah, confidently I believe in this because here's the challenge you'll hear out there. It's nuanced. It depends, you know, it's like someone will say, what's the best workout for me? I'm like, well, it depends, you know, it's, but you know, so you have to think, what could you confidently say? That, that you can feel good about that you, yes, there's always gonna be the outlier, but it's the rare thing.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: what would be the thing? Because again, that's what people grab onto.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I understand. Yeah. The nuance is, is, is, is everything. And that's big. It's a big challenge. 'cause you see patients for a living, you, that's what you live in. Right. But, but I, I understand it. I mean, just like when I was on your podcast talking about the sympathetic spiral of doom, it's that sa, this pattern that I've.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Recognized and that it's already, clinicians already know about it, but now it's a pattern that we could potentially put a name to and then understand how to address. Right. So that's I think, what you're driving at, right? Like have some [00:16:00] sort of angle where it's like, it may not be new in some way, but it might be just a different color

JJ Virgin: It's a different take on it, a different way to position it. And you know, you know, when you write a book, I always look at a book when I'm writing it and I go, can I get someone 80% of the way there? It's not gonna get someone a hundred percent of the way there. That's called working one-on-one

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yes. 80%.

JJ Virgin: could I get them there? Right. And so if I have this absolute, the food intolerance can be a cause of weight loss resistance. Could, that is it can be everyone's cause of weight. No. But if you're the person looking for that, that has all of the symptoms, this could get you 80% of the way. Then we probably do some other things.

JJ Virgin: So

Dr. Scott Sherr: with you. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: so we've got trust on the bottom, then we have authority. But there's another part of the triangle and then there's something in the middle. So which is the most important? So on the other side of the triangle is the piece that they really can't copy. It's hard to copy your vulnerability, right?

JJ Virgin: [00:17:00] They'll likely try to start copying your contrarian statements. That's why I always say trademark them. Uh, you know, I, there's the things I didn't know to trademark early in my career. I'm like, Ugh. So now it's like trademark. Um, but on the other side is your proof.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Hmm.

JJ Virgin: Now there's a couple ways to look at proof and I, the example I gave yesterday, I think is really a good one.

JJ Virgin: And it was, you know, for proof, I could say, Hey, I have sold, I am a four times New York Times bestselling author, and I've sold over a million books and la la la you know, or I could say. I had a gal who had psoriatic arthritis. She was put on some immunosuppressant drugs. She could no longer work at the, at the elementary school that she loved.

JJ Virgin: She couldn't even have her grandchildren over because she would get sick. So all the things that were important to her in her life, she was no longer able to do. And so one night, late at night, she Googled. Anti-inflammatory diet [00:18:00] and she found the virgin diet and she followed the virgin diet and within a matter of months she was able to go off her drugs.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.

JJ Virgin: She was able to halt the progress of the psoriatic arthritis. She was able to return to her elementary school and she was able to play with her grandkids again. That's the proof that really matters. So you've got the proof of her here. I've got, I've got. 40 million downloads I got. Right. And you can, those are, those are, but when you take a proof and you can tell the story of that patient.

JJ Virgin: That's the proof that really, really matters. Now, here's what's important about proof, especially in the world of ai. You know, the funny thing is in ai, AI is looking at proof because then it says you're real, right? So those stories are more important than ever. But the other reason those stories are so important is because if you say this, if I say, oh, I'm a four times New York Times bestselling author, a lot of people are listening going, I don't like her. You know. [00:19:00] Oh, or they're thinking, sure. It's easy for her. For whatever reason. I literally, Scott had someone say, oh, well it's easy for you. You had that last name.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I love that.

JJ Virgin: I was like, really? Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr: be because you're really talking about looking at it from, do you go in from like a top down approach, like, or do you come in from like a bottom up where you're like, you're going from like a heady kind of place where. I'm a New York Time bestselling author. I have all these books. I have all these podcasts.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Or is it, I'm gonna grab you from the heartstrings and grab you here emotionally to bring you in. I think that's what you're talking about is a difference there, right?

JJ Virgin: Yeah, I will tell you what I do. I do both and I'm gonna give you where I want to use this proof that's really gonna be helpful for people. So let's say, I'm gonna go do a talk. I have a a speaker intro reel, and the reason I have a speaker intro reel is because if you don't have a speaker intro reel, people will.

JJ Virgin: Kind of free fall as they intrigue you. And I've had [00:20:00] literally had people introduce me as an aerobics instructor. I'm like, whoa, uh, when I was in college, you know, so you know, if you have a speaker reel, it's great. And then you walk out on stage as big you, right? The challenge is that does not make people love you.

JJ Virgin: It makes people start to look and go, oh, she thinks she's all that.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Yeah. Especially females. I think females, I just think as well, right, there's, that's a big part of it, I think as well. Interestingly enough.

JJ Virgin: You betcha. Yeah. Guys don't do that. Girls, girls are like, yeah, look what she's wearing. I mean, it's like ridiculous. So it's, so the next thing you have to do is go to little me. You just had in, you just had the big me and I walked out. I don't remember. I just did this one. I go, you just saw the highlight reel?

JJ Virgin: Let me tell you what really happened. You know? And then I proceed to tell, like the challenge, the hard part where I felt like the vulnerability. Because otherwise they're not gonna listen to you. They're gonna judge you. [00:21:00] So you wanna make sure that when you are showing these things, you've gotta show that the vulnerability too.

JJ Virgin: And the reason I really love these stories is you'll, you'll hear someone's heart. Like I think of David Perlmutter telling when he did his very first fecal transplant and why he did it and what happened with the family and you're, you just like fall in love with him. But here's the other reason these stories work so well, is people are looking at you and they're gonna decide if they should work with you.

JJ Virgin: Now what we don't realize is how long that decision can take. It turns out that 50% of the people that may start to engage with you, maybe they get on your list or they start to follow you. 50% of those people will probably make a buying decision in the next 18 months. Not necessarily with you, however.

JJ Virgin: Right. What you don't know is at what point are they ready? Are they right now just problem aware? Are they solution aware? Where are they in that journey? 3% generally are gonna make that decision pretty quickly, 15% over the first three months, but most of 'em, over the next 15 months, they're checking you out [00:22:00] and they're looking around at other things.

JJ Virgin: And if you're not actively showing them you know what's going on and and earning that trust and showing your authority, they're gonna go somewhere else. The biggest question that they have for you is. You know, we think it's, I don't have the time, I don't have the money. But the reality is if people believe that it would work for them, they would find the time and the money.

JJ Virgin: So the biggest question always is, will it work for me? Because people don't wanna make a mistake. And quite often in our world, they've tried so many different things that by the time they get to you. They're going, they just, their belief is really low. And what these stories can do is they can show them that it will work for them.

JJ Virgin: That this person just like them was going through this and they got better and they can too. So that's where it really is helpful.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Hmm, the 18 months. So you're saying it's usually about an 18 month period of time when somebody's looking for a [00:23:00] practitioner, that's how long it can sometimes take. That's the cycle. Okay.

JJ Virgin: it can be. So this process, it's really interesting and it's been shown in all sorts of different industries.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. I wasn't aware it was so long. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: Um, I wasn't either, and so, and this is why I teach this, because for most of us, we're like, oh, they weren't interested.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. They're gonna be gone. If they don't, if they didn't make the decision in a month, they're not making it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: and so the reality is, and it really depends what's going on. I mean, if they just broke their leg, they're making their decision, right? But, you know, if they're thinking about some kind of elective surgery. You know, some kind of help optimization. They're checking things out, they're sniffed around, they're watching things or, and it may take time.

JJ Virgin: And again, in the marketing landscape, it's going from like unaware to problem aware, to solution aware to taking action. And we just don't know where they are in that process. And so that's why you've gotta get people into your ecosystem. And then you need to continue to educate and nurture them so that when they're ready to say yes, you are [00:24:00] top of mind, not someone else.

JJ Virgin: That's what's really important. And, and again, I thought, you know, when I first started to look at all this, I figured if they hadn't done something in three months, they weren't doing it. I know in our, our world and the health business growth collective, it can be longer than 18 months. They're just hanging out.

JJ Virgin: They have to get, a lot of times people have to get into enough pain with their thing, right? They finally go, that's it, I'm gonna do it.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yes. No, I understand. Yeah, it's so interesting. I didn't realize that it was such a long period, but I think that's helpful for those that are listening, right? Because as, as practitioners, we just have to be able to do what we're doing on a regular basis and continuing to put out that.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Ecosystem that we're looking to create, right? And then knowing that the right people will come my way is, the other thing I always talk about, uh, to my practitioner colleagues as well, is that it has to be a mutual relationship. It's not just these people want to see you, you wanna be able to have to see them and enjoy that part of it as well.

Dr. Scott Sherr: And that's, that's a big thing that's also hard for clinicians 'cause they think they need to take everybody sometimes

JJ Virgin: Oh, no. Yeah, I, [00:25:00] we get to choose, um, who we work with. Uh, one of my favorite experiences early on in my career was firing a client. And I remember her going, she was paying me a lot of money and she goes, you're, you can't fire me. And I'm like, well, I just did. You know, I sure I did. So yes I can. So, yeah, it's very liberating.

JJ Virgin: I mean, I couldn't afford to fire her, but I couldn't afford not to either. So, super, super important.

Dr. Scott Sherr: just, one thing that's funny there, uh, Dr. Ted, who's one of our founders at our, our nonprofit, he likes to say that he cannot create a therapeutic relationship with the patient. That's how he says it to them, and he's happy to refer them to somebody else.

Dr. Scott Sherr: And I like that as a, as a line that I've used many times before. But I, I don't want to keep you.

JJ Virgin: we've all done it. We have all tried to, to help that person that, you know, and we have a couple rules in, in our businesses, if we're setting up all the structure and rules and standards for one [00:26:00] client, one patient, one employee, just get rid of that person, you know? Right. Or if all of a sudden you realize, like in the 80 20, you're spending 80% of your time on that.

JJ Virgin: One person, you know? Yeah. Just release that person. It's just not a right fit. They'll find a better fit El elsewhere. It's not with you.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Oh, one question on proof before I, we, we get up. I know there's a middle of the triangle too that I'm interested in, but. How do you kind of navigate with the nuance of what's real proof and what's made from some sort of AI proof? Right? You can only, you can do your best, right? But you can have a lot of people go out there and create their own stories that don't even exist anymore, right?

Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, you see this with influencers. You see there's other people, but is your angle here that doesn't matter. You just, you just do your thing, create your unique proof with your unique situation and your, your unique practice.

JJ Virgin: Yeah, and here's the thing, so yes, and. The more you have, like if you [00:27:00] have stories and there you, you tell the stories and the stories are seen in other places and you've got video and you've got, you know, it's, you're, there's gonna be fake ai. It's gonna be more and more and more of that. But that's why the in real life is, is more important than ever.

JJ Virgin: And being able to see, you know, a video of someone then hear a story about someone. When someone's making something up, they don't tell it the same,

Dr. Scott Sherr: No, they don't typically. Yeah,

JJ Virgin: It's not, it's not the same. So I just can't worry about all that. I figure the more we're doubling down on these three things, AI can't, it's gonna be very hard to copy all that stuff.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I understand. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: there is So in the middle. Do you wanna know what's in the middle?

Dr. Scott Sherr: I do.

JJ Virgin: Did you figure it out? Do you have an idea?

Dr. Scott Sherr: the, is it the, the cream part of the Oreo? Probably not. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: It is not the cream part of the Oreo. What is that? Anyway, that

Dr. Scott Sherr: Nobody knows. I think it's made from some sort of chemical factory that used to make gasoline fuel or something.

JJ Virgin: of some sort, right? Isn't it? Some kind of [00:28:00] sugar,

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's hydrogenated something, hydrogen and vegetable oils or something like that. But so, I mean, I, I'm interested, I have, I, I mean, what I, I can say that the most stable structure in the universe is a triangle. Jj, actually, I don't know if you know that. Um, and so I'm interested to see what's in the middle of it.

JJ Virgin: Well, here's what happened. So I had this triangle. And you know, I think I told you Tim and I were in Egypt and we were in the Great pyramid and we were in the king's chamber and had this big epiphany. And so I'm looking at this triangle and I'm having this big epiphany and I'm like, it's like the king's chamber, where really it's you.

JJ Virgin: You are in the middle of this. And the reality is, what I see over and over now, coaching thousands of practitioners is the biggest constraint they have in their business. Is themselves. And generally the biggest constraint they have in their business is something that they think is a constraint. That I actually think is a, is a sign.

JJ Virgin: It's in a good sign. So I'll [00:29:00] hear over and over again that they have imposter syndrome. Right? Well, or you know, 'cause if when we go over to authority, well. I can't do that. I need to take all these patients, I can't niche down, not realizing they'll have more patients and they'll pay more. You know, I can't share my story than, you know, all these reasons, right?

JJ Virgin: But in the, in the middle of that is this, so I don't have to, and it's 'cause I don't feel good enough. Who am I to do this? Blah, blah, blah. My feeling on all of that. And I think healthcare practitioners more than anybody else, are more prey to this. And as evidenced by, I can tell when someone has imposter syndrome, 'cause they'll have like 50 different credentials after their name and they tell you they still need another one.

JJ Virgin: Right.

Dr. Scott Sherr: That's so good. I like that. That's like, that's a good direct correlation. I like that.

JJ Virgin: It is. It's like, I was like, okay, when are you gonna start your business? Well, I need another la la. I'm like, no, you don't.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I love it.

JJ Virgin: but that you in the middle. What if imposter syndrome was really the sign that you were getting [00:30:00] outta your comfort zone and playing a bigger game?

Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.

JJ Virgin: What if it's actually the best possible thing?

JJ Virgin: What if we should look for, you know how you say do one thing a day that scares you? Literally, I look for the things that shove me outta my comfort zone that make me go, who am I to do that? Like I, right. That's what I'm always looking for, is how to get into that space. I think we should seek it out because that's where all the growth is.

Dr. Scott Sherr: This is something that you teach or how do you, how do you think about this? Because the hard thing for me as I, as I kind of. You know, diffuse this into my, into my, into my awareness here is that like, you're totally right, doctors are probably the worst at feeling like they're imposters and then having them start breaching out of that comfort zone.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Um, what are some steps that you found have been really helpful for physicians and practitioners to be able to do that? Aside from getting more letters out of the end of their name and

JJ Virgin: Yeah, the letters don't do a thing.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Yeah. I know you've worked with so many and I, and I have a lot of friends that you've worked with over [00:31:00] the years that have great platforms, and I know one specifically, she's an introvert.

Dr. Scott Sherr: She does not like doing the things, but she knows how to do it now, and she does it famously because, you know, because of your platform. So,

JJ Virgin: Scott, I'm an introvert.

Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.

JJ Virgin: I'm an introvert and shy, so, and that's why someone said that this past weekend, well I can't do that 'cause I'm an introvert. I'm like, I'm an introvert. I assume when I look out in the health audience that the majority of them are introverts.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

JJ Virgin: It tends to be the personality type.

JJ Virgin: So early on. I, when I was, I was in grad school and I went and moved in with a business coach. She was gonna mentor me to help me be more successful. And she had me put, I remember I move in, I, I literally drop, I was in at, at USC in a PhD program. I drop out, I move in with her. I'm gonna learn how to be more successful, and she puts two rubber bands on my wrist and I sold my business.

JJ Virgin: So now I'm. And she puts two rubber bands on my wrist [00:32:00] and she says, okay, every time you have a negative thought or limiting belief, snap your rubber band. So I'm thinking, I just dropped out of school and sold a business and I'm supposed, you're supposed to teach me how to be successful and you put rubber bands on my wrist and this is something we actually do in our mastermind.

JJ Virgin: Where we have people real, you know, thoughts create your language is so important and so much of the shift out of imposter syndrome is the words you say to yourself. That's why you are in the middle of the triangle. It's the language that you say to yourself. It's what you think right Thoughts create.

JJ Virgin: That's gonna make the biggest difference. So if you believe you're not ready yet, you're not ready yet.

Dr. Scott Sherr: totally. If you believe it, it's true. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: And so I just, I just help people start to become very aware of this languaging. And because she trained me so well at 30 with this, I'm so aware of it now. I listen for it all the time, and I'm always like, and she taught me, cancel, cancel.

JJ Virgin: And so I'm so used to doing that with people and that's what we will do. In the Mastermind and what we teach in all [00:33:00] of our programs is if you start to um, do this, you will be aware of other people. You can help each other. You know, our whole thing is a rising tide lifts all boats When you're around people who think bigger, who stretch themselves, who wanna get out of their comfort zone, who are in that growth mindset, right?

JJ Virgin: It's contagious.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm.

JJ Virgin: Just like it's contagious to be the other way in, like the negative situation. So you create a situation where you're around other people who are all, you know. Going out there and trying things that would be scary, that they could fail out, et cetera. And supporting each other and realizing that as you're doing this, you can't course correct standing still that you are going to make some mistakes along the way.

JJ Virgin: You're not doing brain surgery. It's okay. You know, that's the biggest thing to communicate is like it's okay to do a dumb social media post or flub a talk. You weren't doing surgery. You are testing things out, that's fine. You know, you're not gonna be amazing. I think one of the challenges with practitioners when I start with them is [00:34:00] they're so competent in what they do.

JJ Virgin: That stepping out and being a learner again, a beginner again is like, ugh. You know, they think they should be right at the top of the, the pyramid of the thing. I'm like, you have to learn like you're starting from the bottom here, right?

Dr. Scott Sherr: I have a funny story. Uh, when I was in seventh grade, I had a friend. That was a, a compulsive liar. He lied about everything. And I remember I was in seventh grade and I asked him like, why do you lie about everything? And he said, well, if you believe it, it's true. And how precocious this individual was.

Dr. Scott Sherr: He's actually

JJ Virgin: Where is he now?

Dr. Scott Sherr: actually quite successful actually. Funny enough. Um, and

JJ Virgin: I know. So what's the dividing line? Was he just creating his own reality?

Dr. Scott Sherr: that's what he was doing. Right. And, and what was so interesting, he's a brilliant guy actually. And I remember how smart he was and that's why I asked why I was really, I remember being in seventh grade just like, why are you lying all the time?

Dr. Scott Sherr: You don't have to, you know, you know, and it was, but it's an interesting psychological experiment to see that it's what you believe that is actually true. Just [00:35:00] like you said, if you don't think you can do it, then you can't do it. Right. And I talk about this with my kids and I, you, I'm sure you've done this with, with, with yours over the years.

Dr. Scott Sherr: It's like, if you have the mentality that you're not gonna be able to do something well, shocking. Much more difficult to do. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: No. You know, when my son, when my son was hit and left for dead in the street and they told us to let him die, we, I literally stood there holding onto the pinky a pinky since everything else was in a cast and he's in a coma. And I go, you're gonna be 110%. And my, you know, his dad said, we're gonna prove every doctor wrong.

JJ Virgin: And that's all we like. That was, I wouldn't even if, if a little scary negative thought would jump into my head. 'cause sometimes Friday nights in an ICU are very lonely and scary, you know, and you're looking at a child in a coma who's staring off into space and I'm like going. 110%, you know, a hundred. And I would just keep looking for proof and looking for what's the next thing to do to just stay on that trajectory.

JJ Virgin: And it's like, because I, I [00:36:00] knew thoughts created and I thought if I, if I'm just like trying to keep 'em alive, that's very different outcome than like, let's get you to be the best better than before the accident.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. Yeah. It's such a beautiful, beautiful way of thinking about it, you know? And, and it's not always gonna work, you know? But I think certainly, and I think having that mindset's going to work out more than, it's gonna have the opposite of mindset. And I

JJ Virgin: what? So what if you fall short? I kept thinking, well, okay, so if I go 110%, which doesn't exist, and he falls short and he makes it to 70, it's not dead,

Dr. Scott Sherr: Right. Exactly. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: know? So.

Dr. Scott Sherr: yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Well, jj, I love this, this triangle. You know, you talked about trust, authority, and proof, and then you being in the middle. I mean, it seems like something that you've been working on for a long time that you've finally been able to kind of put together. Huh? I.

JJ Virgin: kind of came, well, what, you know, the trust and the authority I've been working on. And then the proof, and then I was listening to, then we went to the tri, the, you know, the pyramid. And then I was listening to Simon Sinek. And he was talking about you and I went there. It's so, it's just interesting when you're really in the middle of something, [00:37:00] how it just all comes together.

JJ Virgin: And I think one of the important things when we're really working on this, you know, listen to Simon Sinek in the morning. It's amazing. Listen to Tony Robbins in the morning. Listen to, you know, Joe Dispenza in the morning. Like, just get your day started correctly. Gets a little frame. It only takes like 10 minutes while you're getting ready.

JJ Virgin: Throw one of those in and, and you'll walk out. Like with big you going right?

Dr. Scott Sherr: A final question for you regard regarding the, the triangle would be where do people do this most effectively? In the sense of like, is it social media, is it on their own? Is their own newsletters, is it going out in their communities and doing, um, doing talks and things like that? Um, or is it. You know, really depending on the person and what they're looking to do.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Like, how do you feel like, given the world that we're in now and, and everything you know about how to brand yourself, what do you think is like the top, you know, three things that people should be thinking about doing to be able to do this? In what kind of platforms? Using your, your [00:38:00] methods here. This

JJ Virgin: So again, I personal brand, we are not buying from faceless companies anymore. You in this trust recession, we have to have a personal brand.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JJ Virgin: and that's how you design. Your programs, your signature talk, what you're gonna talk about on social media, because wherever you are, whether it's doing a talk and I believe that we should all be speaking as much as possible, but what we wanna do is have a clear throughline signature talk.

JJ Virgin: Now I have my clear throughline signature talk. Around muscle, changing everything and you know, take a muscle first approach to health. I can do that for clinicians. I can do it for consumers. I could do it for a 50 plus audience. I could do it [00:39:00] for a, you know, 20 to 40 audience. I can change the wrapping paper.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Sure.

JJ Virgin: But the messaging is the same, so I'm not rewriting my talk every single time. And that's the same messaging that will show up on social media so that when people come to me, they know what they're getting, and I'm drawing the people I want into my ecosystem. I'm not gonna go out in left field and start talking about, you know, um, something, I don't know what a, what it would be, um, vegan diets or, you know, fasting.

JJ Virgin: It's, I am talking very specifically on a very specific area, and that's what I stay, stay in. So. That's the first thing is if you get really clear on that contrarian statement through lines, all that stuff, that's going to permeate everything that you do, whether it's the social media stuff, so you'll have your clear posts that you do and that you talk about and the questions you answer.

JJ Virgin: And so I think we all need to have one, uh, channel that we focus on. You don't have to focus on all of 'em, but I think you need to pick podcast, YouTube. If I'm gonna do YouTube, I do podcast too, because you just. Do your [00:40:00] YouTube and put it on your podcast. But if I had to pick one and only one, I'd probably pick YouTube

Dr. Scott Sherr: mm.

JJ Virgin: once you, because it's a search engine and a lot of what we do requires education.

JJ Virgin: So it gives you the opportunity to educate. If you then can take those shorts like you, let's say you did a long form video on YouTube, maybe twice a month. And from that you created some shorts and then you took those shorts and at least had an Instagram presence. 'cause I view that almost as a website.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Right.

JJ Virgin: And you can put a short a week. It doesn't matter, but just so that people see that you're real there. Super important because you can sell through your dms on Instagram. We have people who are building their entire seven figure plus business in medical field through selling through dms on Instagram, right?

JJ Virgin: So it is with a small Instagram. I think this person has maybe 10,000. Now on Instagram, she started small. So there's that. So I say pick one of those platforms. Speak as much as [00:41:00] possible. You have your hill you can die on in your, your niche, in your area. It makes it very easy for you to collaborate with other people because I think the most effective way to build your business is through referrals from like-minded practitioners who share your audience.

JJ Virgin: That's always how, that's the number one way I've always built my business. Always,

Dr. Scott Sherr: I love that. I think

JJ Virgin: it's a transfer of trust, right?

Dr. Scott Sherr: exactly. That's exactly what it is. And that's what I was gonna say is like the collaboration aspect of things. Finding people that have, that are like-minded than you and then, and have good reputations, or maybe they're building up their own too. It's like a great way to build that.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I love, I love that particular one, and I think you can see that both online as well as in your local communities, depending on where you are and what you're doing.

JJ Virgin: Podcast swaps Instagram. I'm doing Instagram live right after this with, uh, Dr. Srini Pillay. So you can do all sorts of different swaps and lives and it's more fun. You could do a little, you know, meetup with in talks. I used to do those all the time with local docs in my area in Palm Desert. So, and it's more fun.

JJ Virgin: [00:42:00] Um, and, you know, I've always been a big collaborator at Raider. I don't really see a competitive situation. And, and the reality is someone who does something very similar to me. A person may resonate with me or they may not, and they may work better with the other person. It's not like there's not enough people to go around.

Dr. Scott Sherr: I think that's, that's an, that's actually an important, I think last point there is that I think doctors do worry that they're in competition with other doctors sometimes, you know, for what they're doing. And I think that's misguided for just the exact reason you just mentioned.

JJ Virgin: yeah. There's, there are more people than we could ever all handle. We do better all together. We collaborate together. And guess what? Everyone's, everyone's like social stock rises when we're together and hanging out. And I learned that early on. 'cause people who were doing the things the most similar to me, I mean, I wrote a book that Mark Hyman, when he gave me the forward, he goes, oh, this is just like my, my book over here.

JJ Virgin: And laughed about it. Right? And I've never read his other book. But it turned out that because we had similar books, hey, we shared [00:43:00] audiences. And they bought both our things. You know,

Dr. Scott Sherr: That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: So quite often people are collectors. They're gonna go see a variety of people. They're gonna go read a variety of books, they'll do different programs.

JJ Virgin: They collect. They don't go to just one person anymore. It's not like they're, they're going to get knee surgery. They're going to do whatever. If they're doing health optimization, they may pop around to a couple different people.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Hmm. Well that's amazing jj. Thanks so much for spending some time with me and our audience here. Any final words or thoughts before we wrap up? And then also of course, where we can find out more, uh, about you, your ecosystems, and anything else you'd like to let us know about today.

JJ Virgin: I just think it's a very cool time to be a practitioner. AI is giving us some amazing tools. Don't be afraid of it. Just realize that it also is giving you a, an opportunity to really lean into who you are. Again, like this is now the time that personal brand is really standing out. So it's your opportunity now to stand out and, you know, be, be seen and see [00:44:00] other people.

JJ Virgin: So take advantage of that. Um, for where to find us. We, you know, we rebranded. We used to be called Mindshare. We still have our Mindshare Summit, but we realized that what we really help people do is grow and scale their health businesses. So we became the Health Business Growth Collective. And that is at hb, it's at the, let's see, it's at HGBC.co.

JJ Virgin: And we have a variety of really cool things that could be helpful. So what I'll do is I'll give you some of those. 'cause we have

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah. We'll,

JJ Virgin: Ascension model, we have an AI tech guide, like we have a bunch of

Dr. Scott Sherr: cool. We'll put it in the show notes for sure. Yeah.

JJ Virgin: that, like, that's what I'm always trying to do is how do we create stuff to help people shorten the learning curve?

JJ Virgin: And my biggest pet peeve in our space is how many people get taken advantage of by the tricksters out there.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Yeah.

JJ Virgin: You know, because a, a physician coming in not understanding business or marketing and not having the time, we'll get sold a bill of goods of like, just gimme 25 grand. I'll build you a course. I'm like, oh no.

JJ Virgin: You know? [00:45:00] So trying to save people from that.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Cool. Well, okay, one final question. Non-negotiable that you do on a regular basis, no matter where you are in the world to optimize or continue to optimize your health or really focus on that, even when it's tough, when the tough gets going, what does JJ still do?

JJ Virgin: Sleep I like seriously, but I'm so careful with prioritizing my sleep with time zone shifting. However, there's a couple other things. I travel with a coffee maker and drink purity and Sacred Cups coffee. So I'm a total coffee snob and I always get my workouts in. Um, but with sleep, I've been using those Ozlo earbuds with an eye mass, so like no matter where I am, how crazy it is.

JJ Virgin: I'm fine. 'cause like you can be in the best place and all of a sudden you're like, there's a disco next door or whatever.

Dr. Scott Sherr: they're that good. I've seen them. I haven't seen, I haven't

JJ Virgin: they're amazing! They have saved me now so many times like literally you gotta try 'em. They're incredible. Like you can be in the loudest environment and you will not, you will not hear [00:46:00] any of it.

JJ Virgin: So Oslos have been a massive win. But exercise, like wherever we are, we always get our exercise in. We always get our sleep in, we eat healthy, we travel with all of that and our gazillion supplements, including now methylene blue. So I just added to the, added to the pile.

Dr. Scott Sherr: All right. Well thank you JJ for being here. I really do appreciate your time and I wish you a great rest of your day.

JJ Virgin: Thank you.

Dr. Scott Sherr: Thank you so much for tuning into their episode of the Health Optimization Medicine podcast. I hope you enjoyed this one with JJ Virgin. It was a really fun one to record. So much fun actually. If you liked it, don't forget to like and subscribe below so you never miss an episode on your favorite platform.

Dr. Scott Sherr: And we'll see you next time on the Health Optimization Medicine Podcast.